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Leo Trader Pro Discussion
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rayong1

Member Since Nov 26, 2010  126 posts Raymond (rayong1) Dec 16 2010 at 18:34

SavvyFx posted:
    Do they charge a monthly subscription fee, or is it a one-time purchase?

If the results are solid and I know their service won't go away I'm not opposed to using a trade replicator - but I would also prefer to have an EA that I can run independently on my server.

Does anyone here use FinFx? I use FXDD (US), IBFX (US and AU) and Alpari UK...so far my preference is Alpari UK.


Well Leo Trader Pro hasn't been released yet so pricing is still unknown. However some folks seem to have read somewhere its 149. Their business model is yet to be disclosed but their marketing so far has been impressive. They were supposed to launch as of this message but they pushed back the launch to Monday 20th and in the language it hinted at being a trade replicator as Steve mentioned earlier.

I've been running demo tests on FinFx since I got an e-mail from the MD guys sometime ago about how they were they best brokerage for running their EA for US folks affected by the NFA rules. My ECN demo forward testing has not been so impressive, their pip spreads are tight but it doesn't seem to do so well. I'm getting better results on FX Pro (live a/c). My FX Pro a/c is still a baby, just a couple of weeks old so too early to tell. On forex peace army, Ken Long in the MD thread explained that MD performs better on non-ECN accounts and explained why, I forgot the details. I've not tested FinFX's normal account. If anyone has please share.

At the moment I'm neutral on FinFX.

Has anyone opened an account with FinFX yet?

rayong1

Member Since Nov 26, 2010  126 posts Raymond (rayong1) Dec 16 2010 at 19:13 (edited Dec 16 2010 at 19:22 )
It is possible they're going to use a Multi Account manager. I've had some experience with this kind of setup on FX Primus.

The EA or signal provider vendor would have many subscribers and they all create an account on chosen brokerage, in this case it looks like FinFX is it.

Accounts are added to the Multi-Account in between trades when no trades are open because it would otherwise mess up the balance, equity and available margin balances. Should not be a problem here since there are long periods of no trading.

The Multi-account is treated as one large account and any trade is automatically apportioned to all sub-accounts based on account balances. Everyone gets the same trades and the same profits and losses.

Benefit is that you don't have 10 instances of the same EA running on different computers with different internet connections and getting different results.

Down side is you have no control of your account. Once the account is added to the MAM you'll receive an investor read-only password for you to monitor your trades but you can't make or close trades in that account. Its all controlled centrally by the signal provider.

If you need to withdraw funds it should be done in between trades otherwise your margin could be affected and you're drawdown would be higher than the other accounts in the MAM. However, once the trade closes it resets to your new balance. But during periods when there are large drawdowns withdrawing funds from an account could trigger a margin call. Adding funds when there are open trades is not a problem. It just resets and your lot sizes are adjusted from the next trade onwards.

Moving on from a Multi-account model to the trade replicator:

Using a trade replicator might be necessary here. In their earlier explanation of the way the system works they compare input from more than one currency pair and correlate performance of related pairs before opening a trade. This can't be done with a single EA attached to a single chart. This is not a bad thing. They might be using a super duper computer that takes lots of incoming data from many different pairs and decides how to trade. The use of custom APIs and such would then be used and could be beyond the ability of MT4 to run. AI or neural net systems may have their own language that can't be replicated with the MT4 code. The trade replicator would be a relatively simple thing to implement and the Megadroid guys have already got a few services they've offered with such a replicator, one I saw earlier was with a live trader. If that is so then it could theoretically run on any MT4 on any brokerage but you're gonna get a lot of slippage if this is done. Even if the trades are executed within ticks of the signal sent different brokerages will produce very different results. If you're a zulutrade user you'll know what I mean. Slippage is particularly pronounced when the subscriber and the signal provider are on different brokerages. For that reason they will probably suggest using FinFX although it may not be mandatory to do so but that's where you'll get the best results. If this is the case then the rumored 149 number is probably the monthly fee for their service.

PS: if you had a system that could perform like this would you sell it for a one time price of 149? Not likely, some sort of recurring income model with affiliate income from lots traded on the brokerage will most likely be the revenue model. We could be looking at a new paradigm in how auto trading services are offered and charged. Well actually its not all that new. If you look at options, futures and stock auto trading models this is already the way its done. I've paid 50 to 100 a month before for options auto trading signals. If you subscribe for 6 months or a year you'll get a discount, eg. 100 a month or 1k for a year.

SunnyDays

Member Since Feb 20, 2010  152 posts Wayne (SunnyDays) Dec 17 2010 at 02:46
Can anyone say anything more specific about how the logic or mechanics of inter-market analysis might work with this system? If you watch the video at the following link http://www.leotraderpro.com/ they essentially claim to being using a server-based super-computer type of analysis of inter-market activity to decide what pairs to trade (likely meaning whether euro/usd should be longed only or gbp/usd only shorted, etc. and when) and then use a replicator system to carry out the trades.

It will be interesting to see what next week brings.

PS I have an account a finfx, but since it is new I can't say much about trade activity expect their customer service has been excellent. I am as US resident. As far as MAN accounts (managed accounts) go, I have a master account that groups the cumulative equity of my sub-MAN accounts. You would not publish the results of the master account but rather use a MAN account to publish as we see here.

A strategy must significantly profit in a 10 year backtest to have a chance in Live trading - Mine Does!
forexma

Member Since Feb 16, 2010  1332 posts SOLAR (forexma) Dec 17 2010 at 08:13 (edited Dec 17 2010 at 08:18 )
Looking at the equity curve, the average win rate and the holding time I would say this system is some kind of hybrid between hold and hope and very poor RR scalper system.
Just take a look at this trade:
10.18.10 22:40 10.28.10 17:10 GBPUSD Buy 1.20 1.56049 1.59499 1.59327 1.59499 17.2 20.64 9d 3.96%
It is a buy with ~17 pips TP and ~330 pips SL which represents ~20:1 RR. It was held for 9 days, I repeat 9 days for a gain of 17 pips.

All poor RR systems tend to look nice for few months but they always fail in the long term because of the poor RR.

"In trading, winning is frequently a question of luck, but losing is always a matter of skill."
forexma

Member Since Feb 16, 2010  1332 posts SOLAR (forexma) Dec 17 2010 at 11:25 (edited Dec 17 2010 at 11:29 )
Actually I think FapTurbo team is behind this theatre.

I've noticed the lot size they used for some trades: 2.1 which in standard account should be 0.21. On a 3k account they're currently using it would take less than 5 losses to wipe it.
These guys don't have limits.

"In trading, winning is frequently a question of luck, but losing is always a matter of skill."
stevetrade

Member Since Oct 28, 2009  1299 posts Steve B (stevetrade) Dec 17 2010 at 11:30 (edited Dec 17 2010 at 11:30 )
You could be right, there's a whole conveyor belt of new EA's that keep being churned out.
Obviously the customer turnover is high with people asking for refunds but you only need to retain around 10% of the 10,000 people that buy your $100 trash to make $100,000.

Run one of these a month and you make a cool $1,200,000 for a year of selling junk to people that don't know any better.




11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature.
forexma

Member Since Feb 16, 2010  1332 posts SOLAR (forexma) Dec 17 2010 at 11:52 (edited Dec 17 2010 at 11:53 )
I did some additional due diligence about http://www.leotraderpro.com/ . The whois results for owner are hidden but I found this site http://www.leotraderprobonus.com/. The whois says that the owner is Patrick Hension with e-mail: goankar_88@yahoo.com
Then I googled goankar_88@yahoo.com and found that the owner of this site(EA) is the same as:
http://revolutionaryfx.info/
http://forexlegend.us/
http://forexsupersonic.info/
http://forexbulletproofbonus.org/

and many more: http://whois.domaintools.com/leotraderprobonus.com

So BEWARE, the guys behind http://www.leotraderpro.com/ are professional marketers(~100% the FapTurbo team) and this product's quality will be nothing better than FapTurbo, MegaDroid or FRWC robots which ALLLLLLLL SUUUUUCK.

"In trading, winning is frequently a question of luck, but losing is always a matter of skill."
stevetrade

Member Since Oct 28, 2009  1299 posts Steve B (stevetrade) Dec 17 2010 at 12:05 (edited Dec 17 2010 at 12:06 )
Ohhh a bonus. I wonder what it is?

Is it a puppy do you think?

I'd love a puppy for Christmas!

Or do you think it's an upsell telling me how much more I could make if I only used the go-faster version with nitrous injection?

11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature.
ganglesey

Member Since Jul 04, 2010  6 posts Garry (ganglesey) Dec 17 2010 at 14:12
Interesting to note that if 5,000 people of the 78,000 that hit the site on Thursday buy into this then they could change the market in 350 milliseconds.

Trade 1 only lot of 100,000 per person to get in
and again within the next 24 hours
Trade 1 only lot of 100,000 per person to get out.

5,000 people x 100,000 trade in = 500,000,000 (half a billion in)
5,000 people x 100,000 trade out = 500,000,000 (half a billion out)
Total of 1,000,000,000 (1 billion of the turnover for the trade)

Trade that 3 times a day as per the live account with investor access and you would have traded 3 billion for the day.
That is only 0.1% of the average daily turnover in Forex in just less than 1 second.

Can the market handle that?

BONUSES available are fantastic.
Settings the developers didn't know it exists (I believe that). What a great bonus. I just can not wait to get that one.

Give it a rest on Friday and drink beer.
forexma

Member Since Feb 16, 2010  1332 posts SOLAR (forexma) Dec 17 2010 at 14:35 (edited Dec 17 2010 at 14:37 )
ganglesey posted:
    Interesting to note that if 5,000 people of the 78,000 that hit the site on Thursday buy into this then they could change the market in 350 milliseconds...................


Just a little note on that:
1. This is your first post and it's allready a nonsense.
2. First of all the average trading account of those who buy this crap would be no more than $1000.
3. Only a fraction of those EA owners will trade through brokers who guarantee direct access to the interbank market. The majority of traders are still using MM/bucketshops(even not realising it at all). There are many brokers which claim they're STP or ECN but in fact they're just pure bucketshops.

So even if 5000 stupid guys buy that crappy robot and trade simultaneously 10% of their accounts($1000 on average) it represents 10% * 5 000 000 = 500 000. They should be lucky if 1/10 of that money goes to the real market which is 50 000 multiplied by the average leverage of .... let's say 100:1 the equasion gives 5 000 000.
What is 5 000 000 in the 4-5 billion ocean, ~~~zero. lollollollollollollollollollollollollol

"In trading, winning is frequently a question of luck, but losing is always a matter of skill."
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