# 20-40% performance fee (with high watermark) for Forex traders

SaltyWaters
Sep 04 2011 at 04:52
247帖子
Using the provided formula:

NextLevelForex posted:
Pips Expectancy = ( Average Pips Win * Winning Trades % + Average Pips Loss * Losing Trades % ) / 100
= 17.71 * 222 / 309 - 28.20 * 87 / 309 (used the average pip loss with the negative value, as it is, here)
~= 12.72 - 7.94
= 4.78

My system Pips Expectancy should be:

45.58*81.12%+(-49.95)*18.88%=27.54

Expectancy Ratio = Pips Expectancy / Average Pips Loss = 27.54/49.95=0.55

Cheers,

Salty
Remus Miclea (NextLevelForex)
Sep 04 2011 at 07:59
262帖子
SaltyWaters posted:
My system Pips Expectancy should be: 45.58*81.12%+(-49.95)*18.88%=27.54
Expectancy Ratio = Pips Expectancy / Average Pips Loss = 27.54/49.95=0.55

That's helpful, thanks for the info!
He who thinks he can, and he who thinks he cannot, are both right. ~ Henry Ford
walker36
Sep 04 2011 at 10:49
1341帖子

copett posted:
Chikot, Remus,

Thanks for touching me :)

Okay, let me explain about my trading. Both of you are right. My system need 30.000 pips to work, I use 8 EA's so I need much balance. If Chikot see my trades against me 500 pips, he was wrong!! Absolutely my trades againts me more than 2000 pips.
You can see, on middle August my system bring me down for about 10%.

-Balance \$486, equity \$440....... so I'm in floating \$46.
-lot : 0.02(insta)=0.002 (standard broker)
-Total floating pips : \$46/0.02= 2300 pips

If you see my system had large floating minus, you are right. The most important how to keep the equity, not how much floating in pips. Every trader has different strategy :)

Regards,

copett

if with any system price moves against over 100 pips, it is better to go Vegas and try there. there is no guarantie that it will come back. and at that poınt lost will be very dramatic. instead of 2000 pıp stop make it 10000 pıp and wait years with same open trades.:)

Cuong (CuongVC)
Sep 04 2011 at 11:32
237帖子
We should talk about loss or Drawdown in percentage of NAV, not in pips.
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
walker36
Sep 04 2011 at 11:40
1341帖子

CuongVC posted:
We should talk about loss or Drawdown in percentage of NAV, not in pips.

% depends on
- equity
and this is relative.

if discussing on a single system with agreed lots and equity values for both sides that is ok. but for general discussion like happening here pips is the only value that is not relative.

regards
Cuong (CuongVC)
Sep 04 2011 at 11:48
237帖子
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, we know where the money grow the fastest.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Chikot
Sep 04 2011 at 11:50
2299帖子
I think this image is better than words to describe what you are doing and consequences:

<a target='_blank' title='ImageShack - Image And Video Hosting' href='/'><img src='' border='0'/></a>

copett posted:
Chikot, Remus,

Thanks for touching me :)

Okay, let me explain about my trading. Both of you are right. My system need 30.000 pips to work, I use 8 EA's so I need much balance. If Chikot see my trades against me 500 pips, he was wrong!! Absolutely my trades againts me more than 2000 pips.
You can see, on middle August my system bring me down for about 10%.

-Balance \$486, equity \$440....... so I'm in floating \$46.
-lot : 0.02(insta)=0.002 (standard broker)
-Total floating pips : \$46/0.02= 2300 pips

If you see my system had large floating minus, you are right. The most important how to keep the equity, not how much floating in pips. Every trader has different strategy :)

Regards,

copett

Cuong (CuongVC)
Sep 04 2011 at 11:55
237帖子
Everyone is free to keep their opinion. I am focusing on making my NAV curve smoothly going up.

😄
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Chikot
Sep 04 2011 at 11:59
2299帖子
Cuong, there is intellect and there is wisdom.
This guy's curve and Sharpe ratio will look great until he blows one day and he will if he continues to trade this way.

CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, we know where the money grow the fastest.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.
walker36
Sep 04 2011 at 12:04
1341帖子

CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.

when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)

but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.

when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.

with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different

so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.

but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.

have nice week end.

walker.
walker36
Sep 04 2011 at 12:08
1341帖子

Chikot posted:
Cuong, there is intellect and there is wisdom.
This guy's curve and Sharpe ratio will look great until he blows one day and he will if he continues to trade this way.

CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, we know where the money grow the fastest.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.

thank you

I can code a EA in 10 min with 10 code lines 2000 pip stop ALGO is not important and it will make great money on any pair UNTIL IT WILL BLOW.

regards
Chikot
Sep 04 2011 at 12:11
2299帖子
Cuong is actually a honest guy. I have known him since Oanda for few years. I do not think he would fake results.
walker36 posted:

CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.

when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)

but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.

when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.

with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different

so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.

but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.

have nice week end.

walker.

Chikot
Sep 04 2011 at 12:14
2299帖子
Steve, I do not have to calculate to know this in advance 😉
I would just say that were he trading OPM funds form some company, the company has risk management department and he would not been allowed to go into this kind of DD.

walker36 posted:

Chikot posted:
Cuong, there is intellect and there is wisdom.
This guy's curve and Sharpe ratio will look great until he blows one day and he will if he continues to trade this way.

CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, we know where the money grow the fastest.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.

thank you

I can code a EA in 10 min with 10 code lines 2000 pip stop ALGO is not important and it will make great money on any pair UNTIL IT WILL BLOW.

regards
walker36
Sep 04 2011 at 12:15
1341帖子

Chikot posted:
Cuong is actually a honest guy. I have known him since Oanda for few years. I do not think he would fake results.
walker36 posted:

CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.

when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)

but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.

when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.

with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different

so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.

but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.

have nice week end.

walker.

I AM NOT TALKING PERSONALLY. I DO NOT KNOW HIM. AND I DO NOT MAKE COMMENT IF I DO NOT KNOW.
I am talking in general.

regards

Cuong (CuongVC)
Sep 04 2011 at 12:15
237帖子
To Steve Walker,

That is why not anyone can make money.

I can do the same very fast. Only a well thought ALGO will make money grows longterm, and that take much more than 10 min to do.

😄
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Chikot
Sep 04 2011 at 12:25
2299帖子
Steve, I simply know Cuong so I let you know. But otherwise you are corre4ct. i am trying to get my account trading privileges and record verified and there was on myfxbookj site tat MT4 results can be easily manipulated. Have no idea why they make such platforms where someone can manipulate results.

walker36 posted:

Chikot posted:
Cuong is actually a honest guy. I have known him since Oanda for few years. I do not think he would fake results.
walker36 posted:

CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.

Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.

Have a good strategy.

when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)

but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.

when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.

with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different

so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.

but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.

have nice week end.

walker.

I AM NOT TALKING PERSONALLY. I DO NOT KNOW HIM. AND I DO NOT MAKE COMMENT IF I DO NOT KNOW.
I am talking in general.

regards

walker36
Sep 04 2011 at 12:29
1341帖子

CuongVC posted:
To Steve Walker,

That is why not anyone can make money.

I can do the same very fast. Only a well thought ALGO will make money grows longterm, and that take much more than 10 min to do.

😄

Now I know him and I can make comment!
you have totally missunderstand what I am saying or you do NOT want to understand.
with 2000 pip DD anybody can code. even my grandmamy can trade.

UNTIL ACCOUNT BLOW.

I am out of this thread.

have a nice weekend.

walker

Cuong (CuongVC)
Sep 04 2011 at 12:33
237帖子
Everyone can keep his/her opinion. I am trying to make my NAV curve smoothly going up.

I know by doing that money will find me. Actually many people have contacted me requesting me to trade for them.

If you can proof that you can make money grow, tons of money will flow to you.

Have a good strategy and stay cool.

CuongVC
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Chikot
Sep 04 2011 at 12:34
2299帖子
Steve, I AGREE WITH YOU!
This is what I actually meant.
Please read my above comments where I stated the same that this guy's account will show excellent curve and Sharpe ratio until he BLOWS.
I simply stated that regarding Cuong, not that another guy, I personally think that cuong is not a kind of person that is likely to fake his trading results.
Please do not be so hot headed. i like you too 😉

walker36 posted:

CuongVC posted:
To Steve Walker,

That is why not anyone can make money.

I can do the same very fast. Only a well thought ALGO will make money grows longterm, and that take much more than 10 min to do.

😄

Now I know him and I can make comment!
you have totally missunderstand what I am saying or you do NOT want to understand.
with 2000 pip DD anybody can code. even my grandmamy can trade.

UNTIL ACCOUNT BLOW.

I am out of this thread.

have a nice weekend.

walker

Cuong (CuongVC)
Sep 04 2011 at 14:24
237帖子
I think if we have fix trade size per trade and only have one trade at a time, pip is important. In my case, I can have multiple trades open at any point in time. Some times I close every trades, some trades with a loss and some trades with a gain but overall that action bring Balance up. I consider that is a good action even the 'total pip' can be a negative number. I care about bring the Balance up when close all, not about pip.

I have seen severall people do this and I think it is a good approach if we don't overtrade. We have to carefully watch the margin used.

Have a good strategy to all.

CuongVC
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.