Jazz Main Discussion

this week -18% ???!!!!! oh my

i thought you said close positions early , cut losses all the time wait for a winner......so why do i see in your History a GBPJPY trade -180 pips !!!!!! you dont follow your own rules it seems.......this is NOT a serious system

smarttradertest posted:
Maybe you could tell us which part of Goldman Sachs you are part of ? as I have some banking contacts who contacted GS for me, and I again made contact with Whitehall and no one can find any reference to you anywhere, they also said (GS) that if you were part of them you would be having to trade through Goldman Sachs accounts and not JFD Broker or ATC.....which makes sense. I care about your performance of course which i can just keep quiet and watch, but also about what you say and who you say you are affiliated with.

Great due diligence smarttrader :-)

I was very interested in this system but I decided to wait and do a lot more investigation after what I read on donnaforex. I was left with major questions and everything Jazz has said, appears to be fabricated and no one in India/UK/US seem to have heard of them. With no legal authority backing them, and with no protection for my funds, I have decided to pass them by.

Also, if they are running a MAM account, can they answer questions like, are my funds segregated? Which legal authority is responsible for any issues that may arise? What happens to my funds if the firm closes?


My further investigations show these guys have been around under another name. Just check out the below:

https://www.myfxbook.com/members/forex20/edge-magic/958595
https://www.myfxbook.com/members/forex20/edge-480/884223

https://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?p=7383946#post7383946


They couldn't even be bothered to create an entirely new name, the name 'edge' appears in both systems. Their forex2-0 web page has been taken down where potential clients could have seen the similarities which would have proved they are the same people. On forexfactory, they mention the same methodology and Van Thaarp, SQN etc etc and even their traders are identical. Pretty amazing coincidence for a system that is supposed to be propriety.

Forex20 deleted many a system when it started to show poor performance. Looks like these guys continuously create myfxbooks and run demo accounts and then when they get a good temporary run, they start up again under a new name and claim to have created a new amazing system.

From my understanding, these guys were also behind the below:

https://www.myfxbook.com/community/trading-systems/c3xcopiermarch2013/506386,4
https://www.myfxbook.com/members/crmtraders


All of these guys originate from India and claim to be either former traders or have worked for trading firms but are now venturing out on their own but still provide trading/analysis services for major treasury/trading institutions.

All potential clients are recommended to do their own research. Check for legal set-up, what protection do you have. Let me tell you this, no legitimate institution would ever hide the name of their firm, their traders, their location. No major financial firm would ever trade demo account to prove their trading and they would most certainly not engage in any client money management without under taking money laundering checks on the clients, nor would they provide any financial trading advise without extensive paperwork. When was last time you heard JP Morgan, or Goldman Sachs or even small trading firms trading through retail client brokers on MT4?

Once again, great work by all those who exercised caution and patients and weren't sucked in by all the hype. After looking at the performance this week, I can say for a fact, no institution would allow trading of the sorts that has been witnessed on this account, not even the most aggressive firms would allow a 3% down day of funds let a lone two 10%+ down days.

Since taking on their first client in August, they have broken so many of their own rules, hardly the actions of a disciplined trader who has been trading the system for seven years. Look at the two trades they held for over a day (GBPUSD/GBPJPY). I thought they cut losses quickly??

Even if somehow Jazz manage to have many up months, fact is, they have not been honest about who they are and I can not take such a risk with over #30k of trading capital.

I await for Jazz to block me now :-)

@Contest12 plain answer is you are wrong. Nothing to do with anyone else. We have only traded our own money. First time with retail clients. I cannot help you more than that. :) So you are free to write all that though a rationale human being would try to justify rather than plain accuse. Anyone can accuse.

Yesterday we had a bit of whip out but this will settle down.

Best
Jazz

marketedge posted:
@Contest12 plain answer is you are wrong. Nothing to do with anyone else. We have only traded our own money. First time with retail clients. I cannot help you more than that. :) So you are free to write all that though a rationale human being would try to justify rather than plain accuse. Anyone can accuse.

Yesterday we had a bit of whip out but this will settle down.

Best
Jazz

I notice you have not been able to provide any legitimate proof that what I have said isn't true? I find it near impossible to believe that in a population of 1bn people, two so called proprietary systems could be so identical. It’s more than coincidence that two months after forex2-0 ended (rather un-successfully) you opened up. Also the forex2-0 web page was taken down a few weeks after you started gaining more following. Had their page still been up, all clients could see the obvious similarities between the two systems, which is remarkable since they were both supposed to be unique.

Anyway, we shall have to agree to disagree on this question.

However, I think we have all passed the issue of your system. What is now in serious question is your integrity. I notice you have failed to answer a single question relating to your legal standing so I shall once again ask.

You constantly fail to inform us which financial regulatory authority you are registered with. Can you tell us whether you are regulated by SEBI, FSA, SEC, CySec or someone else? Can you even tell us what your registered company number and where your company is registered? I find it impossible to believe Goldman Sachs or any other reputable institution would allow any non-regulated or non-registered company to manage or trade any of its funds.

You say retail clients should not worry about such details and just trade. No reputable company would ever make such a statement especially considering all the financial regulations that are now in place. Would you place/trust in an institution with your funds that failed to provide any verifiable facts about themselves? You are simply a stranger on the www who makes all sorts of claims yet verifies nothing.

I notice you are also now offering/running a MAM account. I have seen no evidence of you undertaking any money laundering checks on clients. You do realize firms in India, US, UK, Europe all have to comply with money laundering regulations don’t you? You do realize the fines/prison sentences for firms that fail to comply? Can you tell me what verifications of clients you are under-taking? From what I can gather it’s none. This alone leaves me feeling very dubious of your claims to be a major firm. What happens if the authorities seize your funds as a result? What protection will my funds have?

Please can you tell me if funds in to your MAM are in a segregated account? If so, do you have an independent verification of this from a third party audit firm? All firms that genuinely provide this would mention it on their web sites or their publicity material.

Can you tell me which regulatory body I can apply to for compensation for my MAM equity should your firm not be able to meet it’s obligations. Can you also tell me what the maximum amount I can claim under this compensation scheme is please?

Any major/genuine firm would easily be able to provide such information. In fact if you look at all genuine firms, all the above information would be on their website and on all their publicity material.

Your website and publicity provides hype and hope. You claim to be a genuine reputable institutional set-up yet there is no verifiable proof on your website.

If you were simply a lone trader, we would not ask any of these things and take the necessary precautions. But you yourself have claimed you are a major firm who trade on behalf of Goldman Sachs through Whitehall through Cyrpus. As such, you
have opened yourself up to scrutiny.

I hope you realise IF you have lied about your set-up and clients are sening you money for your MAM as a result, this would constitute fraud and obtaining money from clients through deception? Last I heard, Goldman Sachs and the financial authorities do not take lightly such actions.

I hope for the sake of you and your clients funds that I am wrong.

I can answer to one of your question, Contest12: he's trading for the 'Ultra Moron & Co', famous istitutional - and international - fund...

Some observations about your trading:

You state your ultimate aim for this exercise is to sell the algo to a fund or prop manager or broker after actual retail clients having made money.

But if you have already been trading fx for several years on a real account and made heaps of money from the Jazz algo already, why not simply show them these statements? Why wait another three years?

Also, you claim this system is not best tuned for US clients with a mere 1:50 leverage. Can you please tell me how any institutional fund would then trade this system? After all, many institutions have millions to trade and they would not trade on a retail account. They would either have to trade on the Futures market which is illiquid and closed for much of the spot trading day as well as the fact that many of the cross rates aren’t available on the futures market.

This leaves only the spot market which is tradable and let me tell you something, with the funds institutions have, they would never be able to execute deals in the same lots to equity ratio you are without moving the markets. So many of your trades would simply be out of the question for them as it takes time to place orders with the volumes they have without moving the markets. They also would not be able to get out in time quickly without moving the markets. In the spot market, a lot of the cross rates are also highly illiquid.

Let me also tell you, most funds when evaluating an algo system evaluate on a one lot basis (unless the lot sizing is part of the algo system) because lot sizes can be used to hide bad trading ie. 10 pip losses on 5 trades of 1 lot each but then you gain 10 pips on a lot size of 10 lots increases the monetary return but hides the fact that most of the trades were losses.

Also you claim your system performance has many manual trades in. I can assure you if you handed any instituion a copy of your algo, one of the due diligences they would undertake would be to back test the algo and compare to every trade you did take and did not take. Any discrepancy due to discretionary trading would immediately rasie suspicions.

Most funds would focus on the quality of trades taken which includes metrics like (on a short term system) number of trades per day, the number of pips per day, drawdown per trade, length in trade (contrary to belief, the shorter time is not considered better due to problems of liquidity and placing funds of any size). From what I can see on your system, you’ve executed 1179 trades and only managed 1641 pips. This is a major metrics and would immediately class your system a no go. Plus you have over 50% losers and your winners on a one lot basis would make your return very un-remarkable.

Also contrary to belief, any funds knows that making 20% a year is incredible let alone making 20% a month. Making it every month is only possible for retail clients as it’s easier to turn $1k in to $20k than it is to turn $10mn in to $200mn due to the issues of liquidity and placing large funds without moving markets.

Also you trading on a demo account is totally unrealistic. As we all know, demo accounts do not have slippage, nor do you experience partial fills and as we all know, on real accounts once you start trading higher lots and making money, there is also delay in your orders being executed.

Also a demo account does not prove the mettle of a trader as no real money is on the line. Let’s see you trade a real account and see if you continue to trade the same lot sizes when you are down 10% in a day or indeed you continue to trade at all for the day.

Frankly, if you do want to sell this algo to a real institution in the future, I think you need to move to a place where fx trading is allowed and trade in at least a $100k account in the real market place and not retail FX which is frankly Mickey Mouse land.

If you can trade a real account of value and increase the risk metrics of pips per trade, then you may have a chance. If you want to seel to a fund, then trade like a fund. No fund likes to see bounces of 2% a day let alone 10%. Down 16% in a average week, you'd be fired on the spot.

At present, what you have is solely for retail.

I wish you the best of luck.

@Contest12 Your intentions seemed to be dubious from the minute you started to write about us exactly like @eamonitor and I guess every visitor here knows that. So I will not respond to you. Jazz did take some risks and did not pull off well taking us down 22% from peak (still maintaining a monthly return of 18%) but for you to revel in that is quite sad. Have a good day whoever you are.

marketedge posted:
@Contest12 Your intentions seemed to be dubious from the minute you started to write about us exactly like @eamonitor and I guess every visitor here knows that. So I will not respond to you. Jazz did take some risks and did not pull off well taking us down 22% from peak (still maintaining a monthly return of 18%) but for you to revel in that is quite sad. Have a good day whoever you are.

With due respect, I am simply exercising due diligence and asking tough questions is my prerogative. Let me ask you, would you place funds with someone on the www who had refused to give you any legal information about their set-up? I am entitled to know all I can regarding the protection of my funds which is considerable by retail standards. Are you suggesting I forgo all these checks?

You seem to be treating every client as idiots who should simply accept everything you tell them. Any visitor here will read what I wrote and hopefully acknowledge that I am asking genuine and legitimate questions, none of which you have ever answered. No genuine set-up would ever fail to provide clients with these.

Why don't you check every single legitimate funds web page. They all give their financial registration numbers and the authorities that they are registered with. This is partly to show they are genuine and to install confidence of their legality.

Your refusal to provide any legal information is highly worrying especially with regards to your set-up regarding money laundering regulations. I do not want my funds caught up with an entity which could be subject to funds being frozen due to investigation by legal authorities.

Even if you may find me dubious, how about @smarttradertest who asked the initial questions about your legal standing? Is he dubious too? Sounds to me anyone who questions you is dubious.

I state again, no genuine fund would ever hide their legal standing. In fact knowing you have legal standing would help you gain even more funds as investors could be rest assured their funds are being protected in a segregated account.

As I said, your system is now secondary and the most important question is your integrity and legitimacy. If I can't trust the trader, I don't care how good the system is. Your returns mean nothing as they are simply undertaken on a demo account. In fact, why don't you start to mention the return on the MAM account - that seems a far fairer system considering that started after you had taken on clients. In fact, aren't most of your clients switching off the system or reducing their lot sizes as they are becoming highly concerned about the erratic/volatile performance? In fact, no client has managed to make even half the gains you claim to have made on your demo account.

The more I read, the more your own messages are sending conflicting statements. You claim you do not need to look at charts and that the system is independent of the market yet you start to mention market events like Scotland independence, Draghi etc etc. Why are you bothering mentioning market events if your system is independent of them? Didn't you agree to stop undertaking your own independent trades and just trade the system? if so, market events shouldn't matter to your system.

Didn't you also mention no trade would ever have a 2% drawdown? Yet this weeks you had two trades which showed drawdown of -4.79% and -6.46% - over 2 and 3 times your promised drawdown per trade. Please explain this. How many of your own trading rules have you broken since obtaining you first client?

I apologise if I may sound harsh but fact is, you have failed to answer all legitimate questions and I once again re-iterate, if clients are placing funds with you due to your statement that you are trading for institutional clients and GS and this statement turns out to be false, all clients will be able to sue you for obtaining funds through deception. If you are not undertaking money laundering checks on funds you receive, even if the funds received are legitimate, you can be fined heavily for having poor regulatory controls in place.

Once again, I ask you to answer all the legal questions I have asked. Failure to do so will speak volumes.

I need not remind you that under money laundering rules, even an individual can be prosecuted for not carrying out proper checks as you can be considered helping to place illegitimated funds.

marketedge posted:
@Contest12 Your intentions seemed to be dubious from the minute you started to write about us exactly like @eamonitor and I guess every visitor here knows that. So I will not respond to you. Jazz did take some risks and did not pull off well taking us down 22% from peak (still maintaining a monthly return of 18%) but for you to revel in that is quite sad. Have a good day whoever you are.

Please show me a single quote of mine where I am revelling in your drawdown? My questions, time and time again, are regarding your own claims of trading on behalf of GS and other institutions and as such, I have a right to verification directly as a result of Goldmans failing to acknowledge your existence of trading on their behalf.

The fact that I question your trading in terms of breaking your own rules is also a legitimate concern is it not? You are asking clients to trust your past trading results but when you break several rules within a month of offering the system to retail clients, that changes the rules of the system and hence clients have no idea what they are getting.

Legitimacy and trader discipline are two major concerns for me no mater what fund I look at (I was looking to invest in your MAM account as maths based trading is quite an interest of mine). Can you honestly say you have provided evidence of either?

Once again, your refusal to answer questions of your legitimacy speaks volumes. I shall be staying away until from your fund until you can prove your claims.

Good luck to you and all the clients who chose to trust you with their funds.

@John levi.................. are you dont get it? COntest12 and the rest of us are not the dubious ones, its you who lied about your system, lied about being part of regulated company, lied about being part of Goldman Sachs, lied about live accounts and looking like you lied about performance as all it does is go DOWN.......

@eamonitor2 lets not discuss with u. We are doing fine. 38% return is absolutely fine for now. It has come off the peak. So go bark another tree.The only liar is you and your fake accounts. Just read ur previous comments about 'troll john' and so on.

you just refuse to listen......no one here believes you.....I have not lied about fake accounts....indeed I havent even posted an account....you however REFUSE to answer anyones questions, mine, @Contest12, @smarttradertest, .......once an for all answer us 1) are you regulated in Cyprus (as claimed ) ? 2) Are you part of Goldman Sachs as claimed ? 3) Do you have 15M account and how so if not allowed a live account from India ? 4) Are you not concerned since being monitored performance is nothing but losing ?
Please answer these questions for all of us interested people and stop avoiding answering....no more looking for clients until you answer......
we are waiting

@eamonitor2: When querying anything, it’s best to keep a clear head and analyze objectively. Whilst it is fine to question the legal set-up and the trading system being sold, to ask for verification of other accounts is not relevant as this could be a personal account and no one is obliged to disclose this.

@Jazz: From your own website under FAQ you stated, “the system is designed with a TSS (Trading System Score) of 2.5 to 4.5 which ensures a high quality in its return profile. At any point if the system quality falls below the designed range, we will be halting the trading and doing a full audit. This has never happened till date”.

Looking at your system today, 26-Sept-2014, 09:37 (Eastern Time),

AvgWin: 326.68
AvgLoss: 245.53
AvgWin / AvgLoss: 326.68 / 245.53 = 1.331

Expectancy: 13.87
Standard Deviation: 444.85
Trades: 1200
SQN: 13.87 / 444.85 * SQRT (1200) = 1.080

TSS: 1.331 * 1.080 = 1.44

TSS floor 2.5
% Breach 42.52%

From your own web page: 'TSS greater than 0 and less than 1.5: 'The trading system is poor and is charterized by a poor quality and poor risk management'.

Also, as per your own rules, you have breached the lower floor of your TSS by 42% yet you have continued to trade. Why? Are you not breaking another one of your own rules?

Sounds very dubious that in the seven years you have been trading this system, it has never fallen below the TSS score of 2.5 yet a month after your first retail client registers, it has fallen to 1.5. Shouldn’t you now stop trading as per your own rules.

If you do stop trading to conduct an audit, are all your clients due a refund on the unused portion of their fees whilst the audit is taking place?

Also, you stated you would never reach 25% drawdown. At present, the drawdown is 24.82%. What happens if it does breach 25%? Do you stop trading? Do you cut lot sizes? Do you undertake another algo audit? How do you start trading again after the 25% breach? Again, what happens with clients fees if you stop trading due to a drawdown of 25%? Do you refund them the unused portion?

As a side note, on your web, you wrote, “The Jazz Trading System is running with 9000 lines of programming code coded in phython, perl, php and database being mysql”. However on ForexFactory, you wrote, “The Jazz trading system is a system coded in C/C++.net with over 9000 lines of prgraming code running”. More inconsistencies?

@Contest12 .................. imentioned the 15M account only because A) he promotes it and B) he says he cant trade live hence why he has a demo but does have live accts elsewhere........................anyway its all BS and we know it, everything he says is rubbish, and meanwhile the account continues to go down.

@Contest12 @eamonitor You know nothing and your posts are so unreadable that I dont even read them. So keep writing them. The end result of your posts is that you get us so much visitors who all end up emailing us to clarify who these jokers are and if they say is true or not. Of course nothing you guys write is true. All that you write about us being GS and we ever claimed to be GS are all false. We never claimed that. We have never ever managed third part money as well.. This is the first time ever we are managing. Thanks to you, we are doing it well. We have only traded our own accounts for the last 7 years.

@Contest12 @eamonitor have u guys thought of creating a new troll id? Havent we shamed you enough for these two ids?

marketedge posted:
@Contest12 @eamonitor You know nothing and your posts are so unreadable that I dont even read them. So keep writing them. The end result of your posts is that you get us so much visitors who all end up emailing us to clarify who these jokers are and if they say is true or not. Of course nothing you guys write is true. All that you write about us being GS and we ever claimed to be GS are all false. We never claimed that. We have never ever managed third part money as well.. This is the first time ever we are managing. Thanks to you, we are doing it well. We have only traded our own accounts for the last 7 years.

Oh dear!!! Sounds like someone is not reading what I am writing with a clear head.

Please do tell how you have shamed me? You have NEVER EVER answered a single question of mine regarding your legitimacy and you failed to answer a SINGLE question regarding each and every one of your own trading rules that you violated and ignored. You seem to conveniently ignore points that you simply cannot answer. No genuine trading entity would ever fail to answer these.

Number of points.

First of all, it seems anyone who asks you questions you cannot answer is a troll.

Lets talk the points you made:

Your comment re. GS…
No one has said you are GS. We are trying to gain clarification of your comment that, “We are primarily a equities special situation fund called WhiteHall via Cyprus investing into US', and, “Whitehall is part of Goldman Sachs”.

When @smarttradertest contacted Whitehall and GS, none of these entities have ever heard of you and you have avoided this question ever since. We are simply trying to establish your legitimacy and trying to establish which legal authority you are registered under. This is very important as we need to know who we can contact should there ever be issues with the funds you have started to manage and also to check that you are conducting your business in a manner which does not fall foul of any money laundering laws.

Your comment re. third party money…

“We have never ever managed third part money as well.. This is the first time ever we are managing”.
This is exactly my point. No matter what stage you started to manage money, you need the proper set-up with regards to money laundering and segregated accounts. Do you have these in place? This is what I am asking and if you do have them in place, you will have no problem showing proof which everyone who places funds with you is entitled to see.


I suggest you read what I am writing carefully. I am simply trying to gain as much information as possible. I do not want my funds in the fund of someone who does not have the proper legal structure in place especially as they claim to be an entity of institutional standing.

I noticed you didn’t comment on your TSS score or SQN or your system audit which you stipulated you would undertake if your TSS ever fell under 1.5? You clearly stated on your own web page you would stop trading if your TSS score ever fell below 1.5 yet you continued. You stated no trade would ever have 2% drawdown yet two trades had drawdowns 2 and 3 times that.

You promised DD would not fall below 25% yet it has.

You have broken everyone of your promises to your clients in terms of what you offered yet you claim you are a true professional and a disciplined trader.

Asking tough questions is nothing to be ashamed off and I stand by every question I have asked. It is you who has shamed yourself. Your amateur attitude to legitimate questions shows you do not have the professional attitude to deal with serious clients.

I have nothing more to say to you. I have seen you at work and frankly, whereas losses are part of trading and are acceptable, it’s the fact you have broken everyone of your own trading rules and you seem to have no system in places when your own rules are violated.

Every client, present and future, can read the questions I have asked and they can see your refusal and inability to answer them. This speaks volume. The markets will always find out weaknesses in a trading system or the discipline of a trader and when it does, you and everyone else will see that every question I have asked, will have turned out to be legitimate and relevant.

I have no desire to deal with any entity that cannot answer questions openly without feeling as if they are being trolled and as such, I have no desire to hear from you or your fund again.

I wish you and your clients all the best.

I challenge you to find a single comment of mine where I accuse you of deception. I have £39k to invest in a small fund (proof available). I am not going to place this with anyone without under taking 101% due diligence and care.