LOST $14 k for 0.01 USDCHF LOT SIZE .Please help !

Jan 15, 2015 at 22:36
4,070 Views
46 Replies
Jan 17, 2015 at 09:43
TomD131 posted:
chiecghethunam posted:
damn, after reading this thread, I feel bad for winning that much yesterday 😂




Don't feel badly. No one is jealous of your demo account =)

You're right 😉
Biedrs kopš   11 ieraksti
Jan 17, 2015 at 10:34
thats good mate
Biedrs kopš   11 ieraksti
Jan 17, 2015 at 10:34
Very high chance they will just take the money to cover their loses, they can as it states it in the TOS.
Biedrs kopš   4 ieraksti
Jan 17, 2015 at 10:37
Well, just want to clarify that if the position indeed closed at 0.06460 the lost IS ACTUALLY CORRECT. You all forgot the fact that at the time the position closed, the USD/CHF trading at 0.06460 as well. And OP lost 937.51CHF not 937.51USD, which equals to 14,512.54USD so the trade has nothing wrong with the figures!

The only hope is IC Markets will revise your closed price.

Good Luck.
Biedrs kopš   4 ieraksti
Jan 17, 2015 at 10:37
Well, just want to clarify that if the position indeed closed at 0.06460 then the lost IS CORRECT. Please be aware you lost 937.51CHF instead of USD, and at the time it closed, the pair trading at 0.06460 so your lost is 937.51CHF / 0.06460 = 14,512.54 USD which is totally right.

So the only hope is IC Markets will revise your closed price.

Good Luck.
Biedrs kopš   4 ieraksti
Jan 17, 2015 at 10:37
Chikot posted:
Sad to hear but I think they will recalculate and you will get money back to your account. The only question is what kind of hit your broker took. Are clients accounts segregated.
You know, FXCM is most probably going tits up. The company lost $225 million and shares dropped 90%.
By the way, did you have stop loss
This was one nasty Black Swan...The news were not even scheduled.
if I had a SL or TP then will they recalculate the SL or the TP to the original price which it was fixed?
Biedrs kopš   4 ieraksti
Jan 17, 2015 at 10:37
Zuttasoxx posted:
Calm down.. You could have mailed Icm.. In fact a mail was send by them.

Dear Client,


This email is concerning the CHF position(s) on your trading account and the prices streamed across the CHF pairs that have affected you today.

Today at 11:30 platform time (GMT+2) the Swiss National Bank removed the floor at 1.20 on the EURCHF currency pair which caused extreme volatility in all CHF pairs and the market in general. Over this period we saw spreads widen significantly which in turn caused the activation of price filters to stop pricing. Once pricing stopped on our main Integral price feed our backup price feed from Currenex was allowed to price. It was at this time that some liquidity providers were able to stream erroneous prices to IC Markets and execute client trades at prices they shouldn’t have.

Today IC Markets will be amending the prices on trades done across the CHF pairs with our liquidity providers. Once we have had these trades amended we will begin the process of adjusting clients accounts. This may include but not be limited to the actions below:

• Reinstatement of positions where appropriate and possible
• Amendment of open/close prices on trades
• Assessment of client portfolios closed due to insufficient margin
• Adjusting client cash balances to reflect the actions above

IC Markets staff will be working as fast as possible to complete the above and restore trading accounts to their correct state. We appreciate your patience as we complete this.


Kind regards,

IC Markets Trade Desk

Hello Sir, will the company recalculate the SL or the TP to its original price?
Biedrs kopš   2299 ieraksti
Jan 17, 2015 at 12:15
I have no idea, but traders I know made money on this move. One made about Eur30000 so their worry was from another side whether they would be paid. But they di have both sl and tp. If you did not have one I have no idea. You always must have stop loss in place. But otherwise mathematically you could not lose it all.

tusharsen1 posted:
Chikot posted:
Sad to hear but I think they will recalculate and you will get money back to your account. The only question is what kind of hit your broker took. Are clients accounts segregated.
You know, FXCM is most probably going tits up. The company lost $225 million and shares dropped 90%.
By the way, did you have stop loss
This was one nasty Black Swan...The news were not even scheduled.
if I had a SL or TP then will they recalculate the SL or the TP to the original price which it was fixed?
Biedrs kopš   120 ieraksti
Jan 18, 2015 at 00:02
rodgerhe posted:
Well, just want to clarify that if the position indeed closed at 0.06460 then the lost IS CORRECT. Please be aware you lost 937.51CHF instead of USD, and at the time it closed, the pair trading at 0.06460 so your lost is 937.51CHF / 0.06460 = 14,512.54 USD which is totally right.

So the only hope is IC Markets will revise your closed price.

Good Luck.
That is exactly correct . I confuse myself with this one as well . I thought if 0.01 lot ( 1000 units ) position is open , the maximum loss would be 1000 units ( no matter what currency your account is ) . But it is obviously not correct.
Often , the best trade is no trade at all
Jan 19, 2015 at 07:45
Conversation amongst FOREX.com broker in regards to CHF.. I wonder if there really is a broker out there who values their clients enough to adhere to the SL or reimbursement of some sort. I'm determined to find out.

APRIL: Does forex.com have any protocol set in place to protect accounts from being wiped out from negative/adverse news events? i.e the example of CHF pairs from last week?
Adam: Unfortunately, the client will be responsible for the negative balance.
APRIL: So if a client placed a stop loss at a certain pip limit and it was 'skipped over' allowing for more loss than what should have originally been acquired, they are responsible for the 'glitch' in YOUR system?
Adam: The stop losses are not guaranteed in situation where there is a big jump in the market.
APRIL: LOL, that's an understatement. So since the stop loss isn't a guarantee, brokers are free and clear from reimbursing clients on losses from huge jumps in the market.
APRIL: So what makes FOREX.com a better broker than anyone else in times of high/expected volatility?
Adam: When there is high volatility the price movements are fast and there are big jumps, the stop losses won't be guaranteed in situation like that. There is a high risk.
APRIL: My question is: If FOREX.com can not ensure my equity when a stop loss is placed during high volatility market movements, what's the point in keeping my account open with you and not trying to find a broker who would be interested in protecting my best interest? ie my equity
APRIL: Why doesn't FOREX.com just offer reimbursing a client's account to whatever their initial stop loss was?
Adam: Unfortunately, I don't think that there is any registered broker who will guaranteed the stop loss.
There is no such thing as failure, just valuable experiences.
Jan 19, 2015 at 12:30
Naturallycurly82, I use forex.com as well and I thought I was protected from a negative account balance. It seems I am not like I was under the belief of so if the balance becomes negative, I would actually owe money. Due to this new found information, I am heavily considering switching to Oanda due to them having a clause in their agreement (section 16 Maximum Losses) saying that you can not lose more than your account is worth. I suggest that everyone pass this information on and make a switch to a broker like Oanda that puts the customer's interests in front their own which is actually in their interest as a happy customer is a customer that stays with a company.

https://fxtrade.oanda.co.uk/documents/wl/oandar10n/UK/en/oanda_europe_fxtrade_customer_agreement.pdf
See my profile or message me for my latest EA
Jan 19, 2015 at 21:35
bestdarngood posted:
Naturallycurly82, I use forex.com as well and I thought I was protected from a negative account balance. It seems I am not like I was under the belief of so if the balance becomes negative, I would actually owe money. Due to this new found information, I am heavily considering switching to Oanda due to them having a clause in their agreement (section 16 Maximum Losses) saying that you can not lose more than your account is worth. I suggest that everyone pass this information on and make a switch to a broker like Oanda that puts the customer's interests in front their own which is actually in their interest as a happy customer is a customer that stays with a company.

https://fxtrade.oanda.co.uk/documents/wl/oandar10n/UK/en/oanda_europe_fxtrade_customer_agreement.pdf

Thanks. I will definitely look into them as well.
There is no such thing as failure, just valuable experiences.
Jan 20, 2015 at 03:02
I ended up opening a new account with Oanda, they have better spreads than Forex for sure and overall seem more friendly and better. We will see how they compare in the long run. They even provide historical data which is nice. Will be moving all of my funds over as soon as I get out of some of my Short EURUSD positions.
See my profile or message me for my latest EA
Biedrs kopš   169 ieraksti
Jan 21, 2015 at 10:42
wow...now I understand what 'trading losses can exceed your capital' means ...

Trade Less, Earn More
Biedrs kopš   2 ieraksti
Jan 22, 2015 at 08:38
I got this email from forex.com


In light of last Thursday's extraordinary market events, we are forgiving all negative balances incurred by FOREX.com retail clients on January 15, 2015 where permitted by regulation. Affected clients will be notified by email and we expect all credits to be completed and posted to clients' trading accounts by 5pm ET on Thursday, January 22, 2015.
Biedrs kopš   4862 ieraksti
Jan 22, 2015 at 21:06
vinabao posted:
Hello ,
I have account with ic market .
about 15 hours ago I had one small open trade 0.01 buy USDCHF .
My account was wipeout completely with -$14552.54 on 0.01 buy USDCHF position .

here is history trade : USUCHF BUY 0.01 -- lost - $14,552.54
open price 1.00211 closed 0.06460

can some one explain to me :

- is it possible to lose more than $1000 when you open 0.01 lot size ?
- if I open 0.01 lot size I would lose $10 every 100 pips ( 1% ) .
if I lost $14 k for 0.01 lot size , how many pips I lost ? 140,000 pips ?? ( 140 thousand pips )
is it from open price 1.00211 closed 0.06460 is 140 k pips ?
I am confusing .
- if look at the history (open price 1.00211 closed 0.06460 )
how much money I should lose accord to those open and closed price of the pair .
…..
I hope IC market will refund my money . This is big scam need to be investigated .
Thank you .

@vinabao
I would say the match is like this
1.00211 open
0.06460 close
93751 pips=
=93751 cents=
=937.51 USD

Did you get some response from broker?
leen76
forex_trader_79612
Biedrs kopš   14 ieraksti
Jan 24, 2015 at 10:36
naturallycurly82 posted:
Conversation amongst FOREX.com broker in regards to CHF.. I wonder if there really is a broker out there who values their clients enough to adhere to the SL or reimbursement of some sort. I'm determined to find out.

APRIL: Does forex.com have any protocol set in place to protect accounts from being wiped out from negative/adverse news events? i.e the example of CHF pairs from last week?
Adam: Unfortunately, the client will be responsible for the negative balance.
APRIL: So if a client placed a stop loss at a certain pip limit and it was 'skipped over' allowing for more loss than what should have originally been acquired, they are responsible for the 'glitch' in YOUR system?
Adam: The stop losses are not guaranteed in situation where there is a big jump in the market.
APRIL: LOL, that's an understatement. So since the stop loss isn't a guarantee, brokers are free and clear from reimbursing clients on losses from huge jumps in the market.
APRIL: So what makes FOREX.com a better broker than anyone else in times of high/expected volatility?
Adam: When there is high volatility the price movements are fast and there are big jumps, the stop losses won't be guaranteed in situation like that. There is a high risk.
APRIL: My question is: If FOREX.com can not ensure my equity when a stop loss is placed during high volatility market movements, what's the point in keeping my account open with you and not trying to find a broker who would be interested in protecting my best interest? ie my equity
APRIL: Why doesn't FOREX.com just offer reimbursing a client's account to whatever their initial stop loss was?
Adam: Unfortunately, I don't think that there is any registered broker who will guaranteed the stop loss.

SL can't be quaranteed by any broker in times of very high volatility. During times of market volatility, your trade could sometimes be closed out at a level that is different to your stop level. This is due to gapping or slippage, which occurs when market prices literally gap between one price and the next, without ever trading at the levels in between.

If the market gaps through your stop level, the closing price of the trade could differ from the stop level you have set, with the trade being closed out at the best available price after the market gap. Negative balance is another story and depends on your broker terms.
leen76
forex_trader_79612
Biedrs kopš   14 ieraksti
Jan 24, 2015 at 10:36
Let me clarify this:

EUR/USD

1.18
1.17
1.16
1.15 (current price)
1.14
1.13
1.12
1.11
1.10
GAP
1.01
GAP
0.96

if you have set your SL at 1.08 and many people are selling, as it was the case with the CHF positions, then your position will be closed at the best available price at 1.01 or even lower if there are not enough bids to sell your positions against.
Biedrs kopš   6 ieraksti
Jan 24, 2015 at 18:13
rodgerhe posted:
Well, just want to clarify that if the position indeed closed at 0.06460 the lost IS ACTUALLY CORRECT. You all forgot the fact that at the time the position closed, the USD/CHF trading at 0.06460 as well. And OP lost 937.51CHF not 937.51USD, which equals to 14,512.54 USD so the trade has nothing wrong with the figures!

Assuming this is CFD trade and not a real foreign exchange trade - I find the fact that your calculation is the same as the loss disturbing.
In a CFD, you are credited (or debited) the difference between the value of the contract at open and the value at close or offset. The underlying provides the price to calculate the value of the CFD. The OP does not lose CHF. Let me explain my understanding and please argue this if you find fault. Let's leave pips and bid/ask spread to simplify this.

The OP buys 1000 units or 0.01 CFD contracts of an underlying instrument (USDCHF) at 1.00211 per unit.
1000 x 1.00211 = $ 1002.11 USD. This is the total value of the contract that the OP has bought. Had he bought anything via a CFD, if the underlying has the same price, that would be the value of the CFD.

Assuming 1:1 leverage, the margin is the whole $ 1002.11.
When the price (theoretically) hits 0.0646, the value of the CFD contract is now 1000 units x 0.0646 price = $ 64.6.

The difference of value is 64.6 - 1002.11 = $ - 937.51.
The OP is debited this amount as per CFD standard. Nothing got to do with CHF. In the mean time before the position is offset, swap is paid as if a real currency borrowing/lending had occurred (in this case you earn USD interest and pay CHF interest).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the loss shown makes sense if we imagine a real trade involving converting currency and converting it back to offset the transaction. In this case, to profit from a pair trade of USD and CHF if the USD rises in value can only be done by selling the CHF short.

As for a short sale, The OP 'borrows' 1000 CHFs. He would then sell 1000 CHF short in the market and receive $ 1002.11 USD.

At some point the CHF gains (theoretically) massive strength and gets to trade at 0.06460. As the OP now owes someone 1000 CHFs he'd have to buy them back with the $ 1002.11 USD: he can only purchase 1002.11 x 0.06460 = 64.736306 CHF. Quite short.

By having to buy an extra (1000 - 64.73631) = 935.26369 CHFs he has to spends an extra ~14'477.76 USDs.

Let's say, that USDCHF dropped even further to 0.01; the amount of USDs needed to buy back 1000 CHFs would be 100'000. This way risk becomes exponential as USDCHF = 1/CHFUSD.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The way I understand CFDs (what most retail brokerages provide) is the way I explained in the first paragraph. I'm thinking it works this way for cash instruments, like commodities and equities.

The OP's issue makes me now think that it's no. 2, which is a warning sign for everyone. That means the CFD replicates the effects of an short sale of the quote currency when you long a CFD for an FX pair, and a short sale of the base currency when you short.

This would mean that regardless of contract size the risk is theoretically huge as the exchange rate moves towards the extremes of the inverse curve.

It's very late here so I might make mistakes, I think this is extremely important for FX traders to understand, and my explanations above are as far as I got.






Jan 25, 2015 at 04:52
Bruzo the above explanation does make sense to me. It's scary that it looks like scenario 2 is the way brokers and contracts operate and not scenario 1. Big difference! scary.
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